> "I would also like to add that California was not purchased of Mexico
> in
> 1846, there were offers to buy it, all flatly rejected by Mexico,
> until
> it was invaded by the US army
> http://www.cr.nps.gov/history/online_books/5views/5views5a.htm
> So really, why don't you get out of there country?"
>
> Nice try, fatman. What link is it that you have there? A bit of
> revisionist history?
>
> You seem to have left out a few things. The US paid Mexico $15 million
> dollars as well as forgave additional debt they owed the US. This was
> done after the US won the Mexican American war. You make no mention of
> this in your post.
>
> A quick online search will be all you need to get these facts. So I'd
> appreciate it if illegals got out of MY country.
>
> Just can't shake that "brown people are victims" mentality, can you?
>
> As far as the IMF, WTO etc I have to wonder why, if this issue is as
> important as you say it is for Mexico's development (and I don't for a
> second believe it is) Fox doesn't use the bullypulpit he uses for
> licenses for illegals to complain about the IMF and WTO? If this issue
> is so singularly critical to Mexico's development, where is Fox's
> outrage? Where are his complaints? He has no problem expressing it
> when he wants his illegals to get benefits here that WE wouldn't be
> allowed to get in HIS country. Unless of course, he's just not smart
> enough to understand the intricacies like you are.
>
>
>
>
>
> fatman wrote in message
> news:<34$265575$1852316$1101585764@britishexpats.com>...
> > > You and I will agree to disagree on how simple this solution is.
> > >
> > > And as far as "we" being part of the problem, "we" have made it
> > > very
> > > clear to our politicians we don't want illegals. From any country.
> > > Period.
> > >
> > > Polls run anywhere from 70 to 80% on this issue.
> > >
> > > You keep referring to NAFTA.
> > >
> > > NAFTA has nothing to do with our failure to protect our borders.
> > > Unless there's a passage somewhere in the agreement I'm not
> > > aware of.
> > >
> > > How Mexico chooses to implement it also has nothing to do with the
> > > issues I'm dealing with. You would prefer to look at this country
> > > as a
> > > victim.
> > >
> > > If you've been following the issue re: illegal aliens as I have I
> > > believe you'd have a very hard time seeing Fox as a victim. He
> > > plays
> > > hardball with the best of them.
> > >
> > > They're foisting their problems onto us in the way of millions and
> > > millions of unskilled workers who aren't supposed to be here,
> > > instead
> > > of cleaning their own house. Our open borders are wreaking havoc
> > > on
> > > this country in more ways than one. Take a look at the REAL
> > > victims:
> > >
> > > http://www.immigrationshumancost.org/text/crimevictims.html
> > >
> > > http://www.predatoryaliens.com/
> > >
> > > No. Most people who come here illegally aren't perpetrators. But
> > > that's not the point.
> > >
> > > The point is when we have an open border policy as we do now,
> > > everyone
> > > gets in. Even those who would prey on our children, as the second
> > > website shows.
> > >
> > > Here's the economic cost. Some articles detailing our generousity
> > > to
> > > people who've snuck into our country. $10 BILLION and counting,
> > > just
> > > on the federal level. Illegals receive welfare of all kinds and
> > > are a
> > > net drain on our society:
> > >
> > > http://www.cis.org/articles/2004/fiscalcoverage.html#other
> > >
> > > It wasn't always like this. There was a time when people came here
> > > expecting to earn their keep. No...ADAMENT about earning their
> > > keep.
> > >
> > > No more, though.
> > >
> > > And we ARE fed up about it:
> > >
> > > http://www.americanpatrol.com/
> > >
> > > http://www.betterimmigration.com/
> > >
> > > http://www.alipac.us/
> > >
> > > http://www.fairus.org/
> > >
> > > http://fileus.com/
> > >
> > > http://www.illegalaliens.us/
> > >
> > > http://www.numbersusa.com/index
> > >
> > > http://www.projectusa.org/
> > >
> > > http://www.reportillegals.com/
> > >
> > > http://www.stoptheinvasion.com/
> > >
> > > http://teamamericapac.org/
> > >
> > > http://www.theamericanresistance.com/index.html
> > >
> > > http://www.usaborderalert.com/
> > >
> > > http://www.usbc.org/
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > fatman wrote in message
> > > news:<34$265575$1850296$1101499455@britishexpats.com>...
> > > > > "In fact most of the Souths problems are caused by the North,
> > > > > which
> > > > > continually inteferes to beggar such countries."
> > > > >
> > > > > Ok. I get it now. The government of Mexico is a victim, in
> > > > > your
> > > > > opinion.
> > > > >
> > > > > This has nothing to do with the corruption which is rife in
> > > > > their
> > > > > government. It has nothing to do with the abundance of natural
> > > > > resources in their country which they choose to ignore.
> > > > >
> > > > > I could go on and on, but obviously they're simply victims of
> > > > > the
> > > > > northern capitalists.
> > > > >
> > > > > I'm not buying it.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > fatman wrote in message
> > > > > news:<34$265575$1846531$1101347010@britishexpats.com>...
> > > > > > > Oliver Costich wrote in message
> > > > > > > news:...
> > > > > > > > On Tue, 23 Nov 2004 00:21:39 +0000, fatman
> > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >> The President
>
> > > > > > > > >> The White House
> > > > > > > > >> 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue, NW
> > > > > > > > >> Washington, DC 20500
> > > > > > > > >> To: Mr. President:
> > > > > > > > >> Please withdraw your support for efforts to give
> > > > > > > > >> amnesty
> > > > > > > > >> to
> > > > > > > > >> illegal
> > > > > > > > >> aliens.
> > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > >> Secretary of State Colin Powell said in Mexico that
> > > > > > > > >> we
> > > > > > > > >> could
> > > > > > > > >> move
> > > > > > > > >> forward on an amnesty because we have made progress
> > > > > > > > >> on
> > > > > > > > >> securing
> > > > > > > > >> out
> > > > > > > > >> borders. What progress?
> > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > >> The number of illegal crossers keeps growing. Over
> > > > > > > > >> one
> > > > > > > > >> million
> > > > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > >> people
> > > > > > > > >> were apprehended in 2003. Illegal aliens from Mexico
> > > > > > > > >> accounted
> > > > > > > > >> for 92
> > > > > > > > >> percent but the remaining eight percent were foreign
> > > > > > > > >> nationals
> > > > > > > > >> from
> > > > > > > > >> 192 countries!
> > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > >> Any guest worker proposal that gives legal status to
> > > > > > > > >> those
> > > > > > > > >> who
> > > > > > > > >> came
> > > > > > > > >> here illegally is an amnesty. This is a reward for
> > > > > > > > >> those
> > > > > > > > >> who
> > > > > > > > >> broke our
> > > > > > > > >> laws and punishment for the millions of legal
> > > > > > > > >> immigrants
> > > > > > > > >> who
> > > > > > > > >> followed
> > > > > > > > >> the rules. That is why Americans overwhelmingly
> > > > > > > > >> oppose
> > > > > > > > >> amnesty
> > > > > > > > >> programs.
> > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > >> Each offer of amnesty encourages even more illegal
> > > > > > > > >> immigration.
> > > > > > > > >> That
> > > > > > > > >> is why illegal immigration increased significantly
> > > > > > > > >> after
> > > > > > > > >> you
> > > > > > > > >> made
> > > > > > > > >> your
> > > > > > > > >> proposal.
> > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > >> The words of former President Ronald Reagan are still
> > > > > > > > >> true
> > > > > > > > >> today:
> > > > > > > > >> "America has lost control of its own borders. No
> > > > > > > > >> nation
> > > > > > > > >> can
> > > > > > > > >> do
> > > > > > > > >> that
> > > > > > > > >> and survive." Reagan later publicly conceded that the
> > > > > > > > >> 1986
> > > > > > > > >> amnesty was
> > > > > > > > >> the worst decision of his presidency.
> > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > >> It is time to show leadership and stop illegal
> > > > > > > > >> immigration.
>
> > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > >> Please withdraw your support for efforts to give
> > > > > > > > >> amnesty
> > > > > > > > >> to
> > > > > > > > >> illegal
> > > > > > > > >> aliens.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >I can't be bothered to read through the rest of the
> > > > > > > > >posts
> > > > > > > > >on
> > > > > > > > >this
> > > > > > > > >thread
> > > > > > > > >I just want to say that much of the American economy is
> > > > > > > > >based
> > > > > > > > >on
> > > > > > > > >illegal
> > > > > > > > >immigration and if you'd heard of a few things such as
> > > > > > > > >NAFTA,
> > > > > > > > >the
> > > > > > > > >WTO,
> > > > > > > > >the IMF and the world bank you would realise that South
> > > > > > > > >America
> > > > > > > > >has, for
> > > > > > > > >an extensive period of time been crudely exploited by
> > > > > > > > >America.
> > > > > > > > >Plus, you
> > > > > > > > >quote Ronald Reagan, he was the President who caused
> > > > > > > > >America
> > > > > > > > >to be
> > > > > > > > >condemned by the world court for terrorism (the only
> > > > > > > > >country to
> > > > > > > > >have
> >
> > > > > > > > >been) for the invasion of Nicaragua.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > And your point re illegals is?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > "quote Ronald Reagan, he was the President who caused
> > > > > > > America
> > > > > > > to be
> > > > > > > > >condemned by the world court for terrorism"
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Couldn't care any less than I do what the "world court"
> > > > > > > thinks.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I wonder what facts you are referring too, you don't mention
> > > > > > any.
> > > > > > You seem to regard having empathy for other people is a bad
> > > > > > thing.
> > > > > > I'm sure you don't care what the world court thinks, or in
> > > > > > fact
>
> > > > > > what
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > world thinks. I wonder why you reply to the post when you
> > > > > > clearly
> > > > > > care
> > > > > > so little.
> > > > > > You might have little concern over anybody else, but ask
> > > > > > yourself
> > > > > > would
> > > > > > you want other people to be concerned about you.
> > > > > > You bandy the term 'victim' about towards Mexicans, no doubt
> > > > > > you
> > > > > > feel
> > > > > > they don't need our charity they can sort themselves out,
> > > > > > lets
> > > > > > leave
> > > > > > them to it to sort themselves out. That would be fine,
> > > > > > except
> > > > > > 'the
> > > > > > North' does not leave 'the south' alone to sort its own
> > > > > > problems
> > > > > > out. In
> > > > > > fact most of the Souths problems are caused by the North,
> > > > > > which
> > > > > > continually inteferes to beggar such countries. Many of
> > > > > > these
> > > > > > countries
> > > > > > have been the victim of IMF structural Adjustment programs
> > > > > > and
> > > > > > have
> > > > > > seen
> > > > > > there natural resources sold off to line the pockets of
> > > > > > Western
> > > > > > firms
> > > > > > and puppet dictators installed by the west. Most of these
> > > > > > countries
> > > > > > have
> > > > > > enormous debts that were loaned out to dictators by Western
> > > > > > banks in
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > full knowledge that most of this money would find its way
> > > > > > into
> > > > > > Swiss
> > > > > > bank accounts of brutal dictators. Loans, the general public
> > > > > > are
> > > > > > paying
> > > > > > off when none of that money was ever spent on their country.
> > > > > > Case in point, Nicaragua. The Democratically government
> > > > > > therthrown
> > > > > > by
> > > > > > the Reagan administration, who proceeded to put a dictator
> > > > > > in
> > > > > > charge.
> > > > > > But Reagan inteferance went beyond this to the organisation
> > > > > > of
> > > > > > an
> > > > > > army
> > > > > > in Nicaragua to attack 'soft targets' such as agricultural
> > > > > > co-
> > > > > > operatives
> > > > > > and health clinics. These tactics I might add were
> > > > > > officially
> > > > > > approved
> > > > > > by the State Department
> > > > > > South America like a lot of the world are 'victims', Victims
> > > > > > of
> > > > > > Western
> > > > > > colonialism, whether that is economic or military.
> > > >
> > > > [QUOTE=Madeira]"In fact most of the Souths problems are caused
> > > > by
> > > > the
> > > > North, which
> > > > continually inteferes to beggar such countries."
> > > >
> > > > Ok. I get it now. The government of Mexico is a victim, in your
> > > > opinion.
> > > >
> > > > This has nothing to do with the corruption which is rife in
> > > > their
> > > > government. It has nothing to do with the abundance of natural
> > > > resources in their country which they choose to ignore.
> > > >
> > > > I could go on and on, but obviously they're simply victims of
> > > > the
> > > > northern capitalists.
> > > >
> > > > I'm not buying it.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Nothing is that 'simple'. Obviously there is corruption, like
> > > > there
> > > > is
> > > > in any government, or any country. I am referring to Americas
> > > > large
> > > > role
> > > > in Mexico. If we are unwilling to address the causes of illegal
> > > > immigration and fix our own role in them, then we are not
> > > > entitled
> > > > to
> > > > whine and complain about how much it affects our pocket in the
> > > > long
> > > > run.
> > > > You enjoy cheap imports
> > > > You enjoy cheap strawberries out of season.
> > > > You enjoy your cheap burgers etc etc etc.
> > > > There is a cost to everything. Who do you think pays the costs
> > > > for
> > > > your
> > > > cheap goods. Why do you think almost everything you wear is made
> > > > in
> > > > China?
> > > > Why don't you research NAFTA's role in Mexico, why don't you
> > > > research
> > > > the IMF's programs of structural adjustment. I think there's a
> > > > few
> > > > books
> > > > by a guy named Joseph Stiglitz about the IMF et al, he's more of
> > > > an
> > > > uncontroversial source, since he used to be chief economist at
> > > > the
> > > > World
> > > > Bank. If you want a bigger reading list, I will be happy to
> > > > oblige.
> >
> > I keep referring to NAFTA and the IMF, the World Bank and the WTO
> > for a
> > very straightforward reason. These are the institutions that are
> > wielded by the West and the US to impoverish developing nations.
> > They
> > have been used on Mexico and as a direct result thousands and
> > thousands
> > of Mexicans are forced to leave there country and there families to
> > seek survival somewhere else - The USA. If you don't like the
> > result,
> > i.e illegal immigrants, which you clearly don't. Then the simple
> > solution is to lobby your government to put an end to its tacit
> > support
> > for these things.
> >
> > It seems to me, when I reply to yours and others comments especially
> > when one of you is called 'socialism is a mental disease' is that
> > you
> > are quite happy to live in this country and benefit from others
> > labour,
> > but when the balance tips and you are confronted with a group of
> > people
> > who have had to leave their country and their families in order for
> > survival you are quick to condemn them.
> > Clearly you feel they threaten your standard of living. Has it ever
> > occured to you that the West, doesn't just threaten their standard
> > of
> > living it actively reduces it.
> > As for comments such as
> > "The reason why is because the illegals drive without license,
> > insurance are the most drunk drivers....
> > they DON'T EVEN HAVE TO SPEAK ENGLISH LANGUAGE
> > B/C now they have every american speaking english to them they live
> > in
> > homes and apartments 3 sometimes 4 famiglies,ruin the yards with
> > all
> > there cars and loud music and house values go down"
> > I can't really see that they are anything other than blind
> > prejudice,
> > ignorance of another culture.
> > and everything comes back to the same principle. How much YOU are
> > scared that immigrants are going to cost YOU money.
> >
> > I would also like to add that California was not purchased of Mexico
> > in
> > 1846, there were offers to buy it, all flatly rejected by Mexico,
> > until
> > it was invaded by the US army
> > http://www.cr.nps.gov/history/online_books/5views/5views5a.htm
> > So really, why don't you get out of there country?
[QUOTE=Madeira]"I would also like to add that California was not
purchased of Mexico
in
1846, there were offers to buy it, all flatly rejected by Mexico,
until
it was invaded by the US army
http://www.cr.nps.gov/history/online_books/5views/5views5a.htm
So really, why don't you get out of there country?"
Nice try, fatman. What link is it that you have there? A bit of
revisionist history?
You seem to have left out a few things. The US paid Mexico $15 million
dollars as well as forgave additional debt they owed the US. This was
done after the US won the Mexican American war. You make no mention of
this in your post.
A quick online search will be all you need to get these facts. So I'd
appreciate it if illegals got out of MY country.
Just can't shake that "brown people are victims" mentality, can you?
As far as the IMF, WTO etc I have to wonder why, if this issue is as
important as you say it is for Mexico's development (and I don't for a
second believe it is) Fox doesn't use the bullypulpit he uses for
licenses for illegals to complain about the IMF and WTO? If this issue
is so singularly critical to Mexico's development, where is Fox's
outrage? Where are his complaints? He has no problem expressing it
when he wants his illegals to get benefits here that WE wouldn't be
allowed to get in HIS country. Unless of course, he's just not smart
enough to understand the intricacies like you are.
first of all lets stop posting the entire debate on all of our posts as
I'm sick of scrolling through it.
The Mexican government isn't interested in bashing the IMF etc because
they are in collusion with it. http://www.aztlan.net/foxfunds.htm
Fox doesn't give a shit about his people. and he is supported by the US
and others.
As for buying California, Mexico lost the war, thats why it changed
hands, money might have sweetened it somewhat, but if it was a simple
case of buying there wouldn't be a war. I don't attack the estate agents
when I want to buy a house.
It simple for you to paint me as some bleeding heart liberal who thinks
people with 'brown skins' are victims.
There are plenty of people of all races, colours and creeds who are
victims of the West, the IMF et al.
That doesn't mean they have to be the victims of us bashing them
--
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